Step 2: Determine the room's center. Kerdi-Board is an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with reinforcing material on both sides, covered by fleece webbing for effective anchoring of thin-set mortar. And second, since its foam, the board is super easy to cut with just a utility knife. Like cement board, the boards are heavy and hard to cut. The 1/4-inch-thick board is typically used on floors and countertops. I would fear leaks in all corners of this shower. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. If any is found, wait a few more hours and then re-inspect. The product involves an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with specialized reinforcement materials on both sides. Thanks to all for the feedback. Kerdi is also used as shower lining, as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2, over concrete, mortar, tile backerboard, expanded polystyrene foam board, prefabricated polystyrene shower trays, curb and ramp, gypsum board and masonry substrates." So, you can choose what board you want in your shower when using Kerdi. Too little, and the kerdi will never show you gray, no matter how you sweat. For the floor, he should've put a mortar bed, then a membrane that goes over the curb, then another mortar bed. It's still applied to cement board. However, a cement board is generally easier and less expensive to replace if a repair is needed. Kerdi board, on the other hand, is an extruded polystyrene foam panel. I still wet the walls first. When doing so, it is important to ensure that the drywall surface is clean and free of dust, grease, and loose paint. Ratings (91) (5) (91) (3 . Find the website that's made specifically for you. What are the differences between "paperless drywall" and "cement board"? Modified thin-set mortars must dry for the polymers to coalesce and form a hard . It is important to seal any imperfections in the drywall to ensure a long-lasting installation and to minimize water infiltration. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. DensShield is one common brand. In order to determine which tile underlayment is right for your project, you need to know which issue youre trying to solve whether its preventing subfloor cracks from transferring to the tile, soundproofing, moisture protection, or providing more rigidity to the tile. With so many different types of underlayment to choose from, it can be hard to decide which is best for your project. This will ensure that the coating sticks to the cement board. Porcelain and ceramic tiles are stiff and hard materials, so if they are installed on an unlevel or bouncy surface they are highly susceptible to cracking. Redgard is a similar product. What's the difference between a power rail and a signal line? Significantly more time and effort is required to ensure a quality bond when using a modified thinset adhesive with KERDI, and for this reason, it is usually not recommended. You absolutely need to include some sort of substrate (cement board, green board, regular drywall) with the Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing kit. When installed, Kerdi Board creates a substrate that is level, flat, square, plumb, and dimensionally stable. see Prop 65 WARNINGS. Modified thinset adhesive is a premixed product that contains latex or acrylic components which make it quite a bit more flexible than regular thinset adhesive and therefore better suited to some applications. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer) as we strive to provide site experiences for browsers that support new web standards and security practices. There is a product called Kerdiboard you might want to look into. For all the substrates listed in this Handbook (e.g., gypsum board, cement backerboard, etc. Seams and joints should also be waterproofed and caulked to prevent water from seeping through. Need help liner vs liquid membrane question. I also used the Kerdi drain. Personnaliser mon exprience l'aide de cookies, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, epoxy or marine paint over greenboard for my shower walls (not tile), Need advice on bathroom remodel - using hardiebacker boards, HELP! . We don't expect people to master this and in fact I know maybe two guys in my area (live in big city) that could do this. In a perfect job, it will waterproof. Drywall under Kerdi would have been a better choice. . This will help protect the cement board from water damage, and is often a specific type of coating designed for use with cement boards. If you want a cement board, use Durock or Wonderboard. If a pipe or faucet ever leaks in the wall this will ruin your shower. The most important thing to remember when applying the membrane over the cement board is to make sure the surface is clean and free of any debris, dust or other contaminants. The main issue caused by non-waterproof cement boards is the eventual warping and damage to the tiles, making it difficult and costly to fix without removing all the tile and starting over. I have used kerdi, and I have applied it over cement board. rev2023.3.3.43278. With that said, the key benefits of Kerdi Board include: While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. We apply the thinset the recommended trowel, can't remember what size off the top of my head, in small sections and by the time my husband hands my the piece of membrane the thinset is not skinned over but certainly dry. I usually use Durock. How should I transition between cement board floor and alcove tub? I think it is engrained in me to do that so I forget to mention it. Once the primer is completely dry, use a roller or brush to apply a coat of your chosen KERDI membrane adhesive over the entire surface of the wall, overlapping the edges slightly for full coverage. Waterproofing is an important aspect of any bathroom or wet-area installation. The back side of the drywall fails and it is just as bad or worse than if it had an issue on the tile side. What to use to flatten and prep wall before installing Schluter Kerdi membrane for tiling? Will use the Schluter Shower system. It is lightweight and made of expanded polystyrene. To create a watertight shower assembly, we installed Schluter's Kerdi membrane over the drywall, just as we would for tile.Write by:. In normal residential use I wouldn't worry about it. Schluter approves their waterproof Kerdi membrane over drywall. How long should I wait after painting on the Redgard before I try to reapply the membrane? The big issue with cement board is that the thinset will skin over really quickly. While cement board and grout are not waterproof, Kerdi is and can even be directly installed over drywall. Ceramic and porcelain tile, more than almost any other surface material, need a stable . Its essential to protect surrounding wall and floor surfaces from water or moisture damage that can occur in these areas. link to What Kind Of Paint For Garage Walls? Thanks to Mongo's earlier post, we knew we'd have to spritz the Hardi -- but found that even that wasn't quite enough. Glass mat gypsum board is a better choice. Why is this the case? This is often accomplished by filling any holes and cracks in the wall with appropriate spackling or patching material. Sweeby-Can you clarify- I undestood that the thinset would tend to dry out from the thirsty hardi or skim over from the air; so how does booking the Kerdi help with the first? If your going to do the job do it right, and give professional advice pls. Thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is best for interior projects, but if youre installing outdoors, you should use thinset with a polymer modified (PM) compound for greater moisture resistance. Can be cut to size easily using a utility knife. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1','ezslot_27',168,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1','ezslot_28',168,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-narrow-sky-1-0_1');.narrow-sky-1-multi-168{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:15px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:15px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:250px;min-width:250px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}Waterproofing should also be done on other areas in the shower as well such as the corners, window sills and other areas where water can easily accumulate. The mortar does . I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. Dean, our tile consultant, says glass mat backer board is his first choice due to the ease of installation, cost, and because his workers like it. #2. Additionally, all seams should be sealed with Kerdi Fix and covered with fleece. Install an Uncoupling Membrane Between Concrete and Tile. Cement board is readily available and relatively inexpensive (about $10 for a 3 x 5-ft. sheet). The Kerdi/Daltile TS underlayments do have some valid applications such as in steam shower installations where a bullet proof vapor barrier is required. Politique d'Utilisation des Cookies de Houzz. MAPEI makes products for each step of the remodel process, giving you a single source solution, and only one phone number to call if you need assistance! Yes, Kerdi membrane can be installed over plywood. That would tell him where the edge of the framing needs to be. Cement board is particularly vulnerable to water damage, so waterproofing can help protect it and help it last longer. I posted a plea for help and Mongo and Bill both gave me good advice. Why do small African island nations perform better than African continental nations, considering democracy and human development? Let the mortar dry for 24 hours then test the shower. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19? Without an underlayment, even the slightest movement of the subfloor can result in cracking of the tile and crumbling of the grout lines. Should I redo this wall to avoid a mold sandwich? We are still most comfortable with full plumber's pan over the curb, including glue-on preformed corners, and also a second layer (usually Kerdi but can be paint-on) on top of CBU wrap over curb. With cement board as a substrate, the key is to ensure proper installation of the membrane. Rolling pin, good, now I can throw away my magnesium float.LOLCasey. The 30-in. I simply sponge off the excess. Also are you saying that you wet ("booking the Kerdi") the Kerdi, as well? The surface of Wedi is perfect for bonding. Like the example above. Such membranes typically come in a brush or a roller form and can help create a durable barrier against water infiltration. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. http://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Shower-System/KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/Schluter%C2%AE-KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/p/KERDI_SHOWER-KIT, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Using modified thinset on KERDI can be tricky and in some cases, it can cause issues. The major drawback to cement boards is their weight, as they are incredibly heavy and can be difficult to cut. While cement board is a reliable tile underlayment, it isnt completely waterproof only water-resistant. BTW the older Kerdi thread referencedwas excellent. When installation is done properly, Kerdi membrane offers a waterproof barrier that can protect the plywood below from moisture. Can I install Kerdi board just on the walls of my shower and use a PVC membrane on the floor? When installing KERDI with unmodified thin-set mortar over particularly dry and porous substrates, it is recommended to wet the substrate first, in order to help prevent premature drying or skinning of the thin-set mortar. Set ceramic and stone tile over the KERDI membrane with unmodified thin-set mortar, including large format tiles. Following the correct application of Kerdi membrane over cement board will ensure a successful waterproofing installation and lasting results for your tile project. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. Additionally, the drywall should be primed with a latex primer before applying the Kerdi membrane. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! Once its applied, the last step is to follow up the waterproof coating with a waterproof sealant. x 60 in. How do I connect these two faces together? If done according to manufacturers instructions, it will seal nicely. All shower/tub areas should have concrete board (I prefer hardiboard). Properly waterproofing a shower area sharing a living room wall, Can I use cement accelerator to decrease setup time of modified thinset. Since KERDI is impervious, it does not deprive the mortar of its moisture. If a law is new but its interpretation is vague, can the courts directly ask the drafters the intent and official interpretation of their law? Je peux rejeter les cookies non essentiels en cliquant sur Grer mes prfrences . However if installed on drywall it is only protecting one side. Mike Holmes uses backer on his show. It is also widely available and a relatively inexpensive option approximately $10 for a 3-foot by 5-foot sheet. First, it's super lightweight compared with the rest. @JimmyFix-it - hardiboard is not really porous unless it is completely saturated. The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. Cut the shower tray to size. We use a pump action garden sprayer and its usually dry by the time we clean the sprayer. How do you show the depth of a hole in a drawing? The bag says Mapei floortile mortar, it was the only unmodified thinset at our hardware store. Kerdi can be installed first on drywall or cement board. Make sure the floor is level in the shower. Needed to interject a little "amateur humor. You are wise to use a cement board. Slap it up comb it out, leave every ridge tall and perfect. Aquadefense is approved by IAPMO for use as a shower pan liner, but be sure to check your local building codes, as some areas of the country still require the PVC liner. And how do you keep too much water from interfering with the adhesion in the second scenario?Thanks!! But that doesn't address your question, so it's just a comment, not an answer as such. They can be installed on any type of support and can even be used to create partitions, with no structural support required. This will help to ensure that all drywall is completely covered. A quality underlayment will also serve as a waterproof barrier between the subfloor and the tile surface. I hang Kerdi on cement board and fibercement board all the time. Their lighter weight makes moving panels around during installation a cinch, which is a far cry from the heft of conventional cement board. The kerdi membrane will probably do the same, and its regularly installed over drywall which is probably less stable. Cement board is a good, reliable backer board that works well on both floors and walls. If you do not already have the hardi up, I recommend using real cement board (Hardi is a fiber-cement) or drywall. Houzz utilise des cookies et d'autres technologies de suivi similaires pour personnaliser mon exprience utilisateur, me proposer du contenu pertinent et amliorer ses produits et services. Both may be effective substrates, but Kerdi Board boasts significant advantages. Can I put Kerdi board over drywall? To get the most protection from the cement board, it should be installed in a way that ensures it is waterproof, in addition to being secured properly with the right adhesive and screws. Fiber cement board is a variation of cement board that is made from compressed cement and sand and reinforced with wood fibers throughout. Sure, you can do it.just be sure to "spritz" or wet the hardi thoroughly before.it's pretty "thirsty.". If you choose to use Aquadefense as a shower pan liner, be sure to continue it up the walls at least 6", tying into your waterproofing on the walls. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Run a damp towel over the cement board surface to dust . If I go the kerdi membrane route, do I still need to tape the joints before installing the kerdi membrane . I just a few weeks ago put kerdi on top of hardi-board in my shower and it was PAINFUL! The manual can be found here: http://floorelf.com/waterproof, I would say unless you are experienced in working with Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing membrane kit, then I would say work with an easier waterproofing approach, either liquid waterproofing or a combination of liquid and traditional waterproofing (plastic covering the wood frame). Prime first to create a flat, uniform surface that is free of dust, grease and other debris. Fixing that is not that easy though. Hardibacker is a VERY "thirsty" material that sucks the moisture out of the mortar VERY quickly and I don't like it. This liquid waterproofing solution does more than keep water away, it also promotes tile adhesion and prevents cracking. Even the tiling subs have moved away from mortar walls because of the labor cost and lack of craftsmen in the industry. Keep in mind, that, just to be safe, most professionals choose to install a waterproofing membrane on top of the cement board when installing in wet locations like tub surrounds or showers. x 96 in. A lot of folks like using cement board but it's heavy and requires a waterproofing membrane over it. New England. Allow the primer to dry completely before proceeding with the KERDI installation. Following these steps will help ensure that your shower space is properly sealed, and thus that the cement board is well protected from moisture. When applying Kerdi membrane to cement board, the edges and seams of the membrane must be lapped, meaning that each layer should overlap the portion underneath it by a minimum of two inches. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? For the floor I make a dry mix mud base and then the Kerdi membrane. Builder saying he doesn't want to put my trim tile in here. Hardie board is a cement-based siding product that is water-resistant, but not waterproof. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in a strong, dense bond coat. A.Sean Gerolimatos, technical services manager for Schluter Systems, responds: With a few exceptions, unmodified thinset mortar is required for setting ceramic and stone tile over Kerdi membranes (800/472-4588, www.schluter.com ), as well as for bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi drains. Install the drain adapter, if needed. It costs more but it;s worth it for the ease of install IMO. Here's how to get it right the first time, If you've got a steady hand, a few easy-to-find supplies and patience, you can install a tile backsplash in a kitchen or bathroom, Step 4 in swapping your tub for a sleek new shower: Pick your waterproofing materials and drain, and don't forget to test, Work with your contractors and installers to ensure a safe, stylish curb that keeps the water where it belongs, Get the benefits of a time-honored ritual without firing up the coals, thanks to easier-than-ever home steam systems, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, Out With the Old Tile: 8 Steps to Prep for Demolition, Convert Your Tub Space Into a Shower Waterproofing and Drainage, Steam Showers Bring a Beloved Spa Feature Home. The shower tray eliminates the need for a mortar bed. The drywall's back side fails, and it's just as bad or worse than it was on the tile side. Kerdi Board is expensive, but I can justify it because it saves time, and it's a joy to use. For indoor projects and gypsum board, thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is ideal. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. When cleaning thinset off of Schluter membranes, the manufacturer recommends using a wet sponge and taking care to avoid any scoring or inconsistencies on the surface of the membrane. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried . Go with smaller bags or only mix half. You'll know the RG is dry when it turns reallllly dark bright red as opposed to the pinkish color when applied. We want that inside corner able to move. On the 'rolling pin', it actually wasn't the kitchen kind, but rather a very heavy metal roller DH had from some sort of fabrication table. builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator. By: Author Olin Wade (Remodel or Move Stuff). We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried using a larger notch trowel, but nothing seems to make the Kerdi stick. They are square. It is designed to form a waterproof layer between cement board and tiles, helping create a watertight installation. Installation; As the GoBoard is very lightweight, it becomes easy to . Do you have any pictures? Cross your fingers and hope it's all OK. Not the best Kerdi Showcase. Hello D Zak! To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. They are absorbed into the surface material and help keep moisture away from the substrate surface. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-box-3','ezslot_2',173,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-box-3-0');Yes, you can put Kerdi membrane over cement board. We were using a 3/16 x 5/32 trowel, probably to small. Both Kerdi Board and cement board are designed to smooth out uneven spots on the installation surface, create an unbending layer that wont flex underfoot, and also provide a waterproof barrier. 120 sq feet including the floor. Hi.I have a unique situation. What is a word for the arcane equivalent of a monastery? The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. We like that the Kerdi membrane material installs easily over almost any substrate, including standard wallboard. Once you have selected the right sealer, follow the manufacturers instructions and apply a generous, even coat over the entire surface of the Hardie board. Well, DH said he had virtually no time to work with the stuff before it dried out, so he switched from my spritz bottle to a sponge. I used to "trust" the Kerdi and drywall until I had a shower that the valve broke inside the wall cavity four years after being put in. Why is there a voltage on my HDMI and coaxial cables? To waterproof Hardie board, you should choose a quality sealer that is designed for use on cement-based sidings. As a contractor, I have been using Kerdi since it came out. Kerdi Board panels have a number of other advantages: they can be cut to size using an ordinary utility knife, can be glued or screwed into place, and are very lightweight. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Continuing Education for Architects & Designers. I circled one area, but there are lots of these edges." - Lisa Jasper The Kerdi band should be smooth and flat - not wavy/ "3) there is no membrane of waterproofing on the hardboard across from the "wet wall" after 5 1/2 feet up. First Kerdi can be installed on drywall or cement board. Why do small African island nations perform better than African continental nations, considering democracy and human development? And we are using a drippy mixture, it slides off the trowel. Project Type: Tile / Category: Bathroom. What can a lawyer do if the client wants him to be acquitted of everything despite serious evidence? RedGard can be used on a wide range of interior and exterior surfaces. I would get someone else. A successful tile installation largely depends on the substrate that the tile is attached to. Installation instructions vary depending on the type of Kerdi membrane being used, but typically the membrane is applied directly to a clean, dry plywood surface that is free from dust, dirt, and other debris. Cement board comes both in 1/4-inch-thick and 1/2-inch-thick versions. Most of the entries in the NAME column of the output from lsof +D /tmp do not begin with /tmp. I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. When it comes to using thinset with Schluter products, the Schluter-Systems website recommends using unmodified thin-set mortars specifically designed for use with Schluter membranes. We sponge water onto the cement board. To line niche shelves, for instance. That was not a fault of the Kerdi, or the installation. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[580,400],'remodelormove_com-leader-2','ezslot_21',165,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-leader-2-0');Once the seams are sealed, lay down a waterproof coating to the floor and walls of the shower space. I want to mount a cast iron bathtub, but not pull down my 1905 plaster and lath. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. There's a really great manual (with diagrams) that makes this all easier to understand. Ready to join the 100,000+ homeowners matched with pros? An extra layer of thinset is then added to the surface of the cement board to adhere the tiles in place. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Underlayment is designed to smooth out uneven areas of the subfloor and form a rigid layer that prevents the flooring from bending. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Additionally, a liquid water-resistant membrane should be applied over all surface areas before installation. Kerdi-Board panels allow the installer to prepare and create a broad range . Ultimately, the decision between a Schlter system or a cement board comes down to the particular application and the goals the user has for the floor system. You probably have to go to a big box store's special order desk or find a specialty tile supplier to find it. The Kerdi membrane should be applied with the standard procedure, using a hogg brush or a notched trowel to spread the thin-set mortar and a roller to ensure appropriate adhesion. Make sure to use multiple coats, if necessary. Spacers are the next step. We installed cement board on the walls, and today when we attempted to apply the Kerdi membrane we could not get it to adhere. It could take longer if the space is particularly wet or humid. Actually if you watch any pros work (not on crappy shows) on TV you will see them use backer board 99% of the time. The site is called floorelf.com. If he did the framing for the shower, then in order to measure for it correctly, he would need to know how thick the tile is so that he can avoid exactly this problem. Cement board is a bit better, but you need to spray either one before applying the mortar so that it doesn't "skin over" before you can get the Kerdi up. :/. Kerdi 3 ft. 3 in. When applying the primer, make sure to cover all surfaces thoroughly, as these will be completely covered by the KERDI membrane. x 5-ft. and 3 x 5-ft. sheets of cement board are sized for efficient use around bathtubs and showers. Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4HjHT6_cUo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEt6irjJCI0, My master suite addition & full bath to 1/2 bath renovation. x 33 ft. Waterproofing Membrane: Kerdi-Board 1/2 in. The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese. The use of modified thinset adhesive could result in an inadequate bond and could lead to possible delamination. By the time you switch from the RG application to the Kerdi installation, it should be dry. . If youre not careful, the boards can also leave behind abrasive sandy crumbs that can cause damage to your shower base or tub. Welcome to the site. How did this project turn out? Personally, I like standard drywall. Kerdi really offers very little advantage over hardiboard plus membrane. Using self-leveling underlayment takes careful prep work. I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. Yes, Hardie board needs to be waterproofed. Once you have determined the type of thinset, its important to also consider the weather conditions during installation. Recovering from a blunder I made while emailing a professor, Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain. Following the instructions for the product being used and ensuring that all of the necessary steps are followed will help to ensure a successful installation. It also features fleece webbing that allows for effective anchoring into thin-set mortar. Step 6: Choosing the Next Tile. Cement board is a mineral-based board, usually 30 inches by 60 inches, that is used as a lower, dimensionally stable surface for installing ceramic tile, porcelain tile, or stonework. If you are laying tile on floors that are wavy or out of level, self-leveling underlayment is a great solution. Kerdi membrane can be used on cement board, drywall, and, as you may have guessed- greenboard. After installing your mud bed, make sure it is fully cured before applying Aquadefense. If you want to go to the extra effort of putting the membrane over drywall, there is no need to use greenboard. Shouldn't take too long, maybe an hour or so. FRC board tends to be more moisture-resistant than gypsum board and is best suited for outdoor projects such as showers or tub surrounds. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Here are the fundamentals of tile installation over cement board. But I did want to understand the cost breakdown as the walls then become WAY more expensive than it would be with Redguard.
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