However, the penalties for pilot deviation can be quite severe, which is something that you should be aware of. My father was an Air Traffic Controller when the accident happened over San Diego in 1979 (not the one on duty when the accident occurred) so I know just as much about the history of this airspace as you claim to know, maybe even more. I live under the approach and departure path to MIA, so I constantly have ATC audio playing in the background. "Other pilot: "You're an ass$&#!". He should have declared an emergency when denied entry into Bravo. Only then did he comply with instructions. And, when pilot deviation notification procedures were first added to the ATC manual in 1995, the procedure and phraseology were substantially similar to the pertinent provisions of Notice We will leave some of the most common violations below for you to read about. If an ATC clearance has been obtained, there is no pilot that is allowed to deviate from the given clearance unless an amended clearance has been obtained, there is an emergency, or the deviation is in response to an air traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the coordinator(s) found in the letter. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". This guy is a real threat to himself and others. This notice provides new procedures for investigating pilot deviations (PD), and completing FAA Form 8020-18, Investigation of Pilot Deviation Report by certificate-holding district offices (CHDO), Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO), and certificate management offices (CMO) with oversight of air carrier operators certificated under ATC "OK, state reasons please". "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not forthemselves, and under a just God, cannot long retain it. The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. Now he may have requested clearance BUT requesting clearance and being granted clearance are two different things. The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. I have to say the VASAviation guts who make these videos to an awesome job, its really cool how they combine the audio with the radar detail. I know the FAA is trying to do the whole kinder gentler thing but there is a time to make an example. For the bloviating piehole who made a comment about the American pilot who required 31L, I was the PIC and I declared an emergency three times because there was one. This is about aviation. You need special clearance to enter this airspace. There are reasons for the rules. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. Second in a high traffic area like near an airport multiple pilots can be on the same channel, it is a way to identify the pilot speaking as one pilot may sound like another. He busted that test and they pulled his ticket. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. I will answer the question exactly as written: > When ATC has you call. Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. We will leave some of the most common violations below for you to read about. https://cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2020/09/15/FLM1_Phone_Call_N731NR_-_Redacted.wav. Good luck. Mistakes happen. * See for example https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo, Subject: HQ: Request 2020-007191 under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. The guy should be grounded for a nice long while. Is there any way you can vector me through? The first is to signal that the pilot is done speaking especially. 800 Independence Avenue, SW In contrast, the pilot of N731NR exhibited an unrepentant anti-authority attitude. The recording indicates a few things going on: sounded like a rough flight, pilot's kid threw up, perhaps he had his hands full. It appears this pilot got sloppy without realizing he got sloppy. Mistakes happen. This leads me to believe that a medical problem or hypoxia or something like that might (emphasis, _might__) have been a factor. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? "LAS: "Nobody clears you through the Bravo but me. > Nobody gives a f*. First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. I drove IP the 95 miles to FSD and he had a session with the controller and the supervisor. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, Cleared into Brovo. You should be ashamed. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. All I can say is ATC should be paid for saving people's lives!!!!! Probably is not the first time he had poor service from ATC. That's the whole point of talking to you.". Every pilot has equal access to the airspace system and have Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language.". I remember about 20 years ago when my grandfather and I flew up to Vegas to SEMA and we flew outside class bravo and he explicitly explained that we dont get near that ring until ATC says clear to enter. For this pilot (tail number N731NR abbreviated to N1NR), it wasn't a mistake as noted by the following exchange: LAS Approach: "N1NR, I need you outside of the Bravo"N731NR: "Negative"LAS: "Negative what? Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). Wnt to the FBO called the ATC sup from the day before had him and the controller involved from the previous flight, made student apologize for his behavior requested they critique student radio skill (he always had a cigar stub in his mouth, refused to remove it). 24 votes, 30 comments. Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. Washington, DC 20591 Some of the penalties of pilot deviation can be no action, a warning notice or letter of correction, certificate suspension, civil penalties, retraining, and even certificate revocation. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. He endangered so many people. Thanks. Assuming N1NR requested clearance, in standard aviation communications, there is a clear protocol. Of course that is true, but people who are suffering recent onset of dementia / tumor-induced emotional outbursts / schizophrenia etc. I hope he stops making bad decisions before he no longer has the ability to do so. They made me navigate the class B environment that I was unfamiliar with without help from ATC. How hard would it be to just clear him through? The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WWFeldman, Oct 29, 2020. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's Karen: I hope this guy is ready to hear a lot of "unable VFR services" or "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" when they recognize who he is again. There are published VFR approaches and having flowing the west side "water tower" I know they're trivial. I suggested they speak with the father and ask him if perhaps, she was a spoiled B. However, unless you are in a Class A airspace, a pilot is allowed to cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. "N731NR (still whining): "Then clear me through. Where do I go on the Net to get ATC chatter at RDU? Undiagnosed tumors and the like can lead to emotional regulation problems and impaired judgement. Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. Keep up the anti-mask bs. Gotta love how times have changed Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. The wheels of justice grind slowly but they do grind - Ken White (a lawyer and a good one). We will also go into the consequences that could occur if you were to get into trouble for this. We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys. Whats with the last controller sounding like he is appeasing this dude, instead of trusting the previous controller. Always IFR but I still We all know the pilot was wrong but. maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. Time that controller needed for other pilots who HAD to be in the Class B. I can't believe anyone would defend his behavior Is it that hard to skirt around or over it? Controllers do not make up things to pick on pilots. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. Really when you hit "submit" you should have not. All I do is shake my head and smile. U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration 800 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20591 1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322) He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because hes flying., Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license. For starters, she let him wander into bravo and didn't kick him out until he was well inside. Thank you for your attached FOIA request. The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. - hold until otherwise instructed Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. - attitude, attitude, attitude, and I'm not talking about the aircraft. In this case, N1NR is not landing at Las Vegas but at a different airport and is just passing through the area. In aviation, Bravo airspace or Class B space is a zone around some of the busiest airports that no plane or helicopter is allowed to enter without permission. Looks like he was below 6000 the whole time. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.Pilot: Ive been talking to you the whole time. ], Subject: RE: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020. often don't recognize their own issue. The Federal Aviation Administration publishes quarterly a compilation of enforcement actions against regulated aviation entities that are closed with either a civil penalty or issuance of a certificate suspension or revocation. Looks like we found the co-owner of Wife Approved, LLC. Have you ever said That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. The magic words that should raise the hairs on the back of your neck are "possible pilot deviation." It goes without saying that you should remain vigilant as you fly around the national. (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N731NR). [His lack of permission and knowledge about needing such was discussed by previous posters and is referenced here just for completeness.]. Anyway, a video has just been uploaded of an interaction between an air traffic controller and a pilot over the skies of Las Vegas on June 20, 2020. In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. The more belligerent she became the more concerned the staff was. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. 2) If he claims some kind of medical condition, goodbye medical certificate. Airborne deviations can result when pilots stray from an assigned, heading, altitude, or instrument procedure, or if they penetrate controlled or restricted airspace without ATC clearance. In the next couple of weeks this is what he can expect: 1 Phone call with FAA to get pilots side of the story. Your request is assigned to the office listed below: Federal Aviation Administration Contact: Amelia McGillWestern-Pacific Region (424) 405-7221Flight Standards Division, AWP-200777 S. Aviation Blvd.El Segundo, CA 90245. Caller - is he available, This incident is recorded as all radio communications between planes and ATC are definitely recorded as a matter of public record:https://onemileatatime.com/atc-audio-negligent-pilot/. If you do receive a brasher warning, you should know that you do not have to call the provided telephone straight away, and you are allowed to take some time to think about the situation that has occurred. Indeed: N731NR - Aircraft Registration Information D DankVectorz Legendary Member FAA Messages 1,895 Facility N90 New York Tracon Jun 25, 2020 #6 Phillyman2633 said: What the cuck? The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. Watch how 731NR Decides to fly right into class bravo and not even care about it. The owner of that plane holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate. He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him. Once I had to reroute a general aviation pilot around weather to miss other traffic and he would not do it, Finally I was told to Once I had to reroute a general aviation pilot around weather to miss other traffic and he would not do it, Finally I was told to ask him "are you refusing an air traffic control clearance?" If this pilot had any sense he would have self reported because his flight recording through the area shows something different than what he thought. Is spoiled B short for "Spoiled Bravo Airspace" or "Spoiled Brat" or "Spoiled B." :). Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? Calling the cops on "someone suspicious" has become a way to say "There's a minority person and I don't like something about them so I called the cops on them.". A brasher warning is basically when you are given notice that you have made a mistake when you were piloting a plane. I look forward to receiving your response to this request within 20 business days, as the statute requires. Part of the perfected status is a complete name, and address from each requestor. She didn't offer a heading or instruction to resolve the issue. To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. Again, not a good decision. You don't get to tar the rest of us with his brush. This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions. Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. Secure .gov websites use HTTPS And in any case, if the ATC says you need to get out of the airspace, you do it. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. Not a cool move on his part. Turns out he's a slumlord, "supplement" pill pusher, and owns a "wealth generation" company. I noticed a typo "pilot deviation" should be of course "pilot deviation". This letter acknowledges receipt of your FOIA request dated May 27, 2020, regarding any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions, or FSDO records, regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance. He did request a clearance. The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia. So to appease the pilot and keep him from rattling off more sob story on frequency, he just smiles and waves. I won't belabor those points. He could have declared, he could have said he has a medical emergency, heck he could have said all sorts of things. Pilot: Ive asked for clearance multiple times.ATC: N1NR, I told you to remain outside the Bravo.ATC: N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. OR he's actually the A that pilot b called him and in that case, break out the cheese grater and throw the AH over your knee. I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. First of all, I've never gotten one, and don't plan to get one. Time for this jerk to buy a ticket on Southwest and shut up. There are riots. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's how to correct it" you do just that. I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. He flew the plane and student back, Mom advised student (he wanted to finish he's flight) he was done until she discussed it with IP and Dad as owner and Chief Pilot. Keep up the anti-mask bs. To all the negative comments we did not hear previous communication. I am sure you are a "perfect angel". Civil aviation authorities should raise pilot standards. If you are training to be a pilot, or simply have an interest in the industry, a phrase that you might have come across is pilot deviation. He was wrong in what he did but I had to voice this opinion. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. Yeah, he was a jerk, but she is paid to problem solve, and she didn't offer him any useful solutions other than to just leave. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation. At the point you're referring to he was a FREAKING IDIOT who SHOULD LOSE HIS CERT violating airspace. Additionally while it is not required to end a conversation with ATC with the tail number, it is customary to do so for many reasons. ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, Cleared into Brovo. Or the one over "Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. He never said he was unable to exit the Bravo due to terrain like he told the supervisor. He flew straight to KHND like he owned the sky. This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. That award goes to the pilot of PK8303 who ignored multiple warnings about how he was too high and fast, and then tried to land with gear up before killing almost everyone on board. As soon as I heard this when she said not cleared I remember him saying thats a $5,000 fine. She should have vectored him out after he refused. If N1NR requested clearance but did not hear back from ATC, they would have to repeat the request as they cannot assume what ATC heard; however, it is highly unlikely that even if ATC heard the request they would allow N1NR clearance into Bravo. Aviation SafetyOffice of Safety StandardsRegulatory Support DivisionAviation Data Systems Branch, In our continuing effort to improve the quality of service to our stakeholders, we would appreciate any comments you may have about our services and how to improve them. Anarchists on the ground, anarchists in the air. That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety judgement. Air traffic controllers are susceptible to power trips and moods and biases, just like everyone else. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. I was working the ER In Jerusalem and this belligerent teen was being kept there for observation post head trauma. Blatantly ignoring ATC is criminally gross negligence. ATC should have called the Airforce on him. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! If an air traffic controller has determined that the actions of a pilot have affected the safety of operation, then it is the controllers responsibility to notify the flight crew as soon as it is practical to do so. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. Please find attached the completed copy of your FOIA request number 2020-007191 from the Aviation Data Systems Branch in Oklahoma City.